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Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Yahoo Message Number: 116764
Hola -

First, echo-charger - I'm not really able to test since my domestic
battery is 13.5v, but I did disconnect the domestic battery fuse wire
(while engine running), and so it seems like I should see 12+ volts then
on the domestic wire since the engine wire reads 14v. But I'm seeing
only 2v out on the domestic wire. All fuses look good (visually, the one
inside the echo looks good).

So, my questions is does it sound like my echo-charger is not working?
(or does it need to read some voltage on the domestic side) I have a
2000 CC Allure, so it looks like I only have the one red led on the echo
box to indicate overheat condition. Also, while on my lead acid
batteries before replacement, they decreased in voltage while driving,
so it seemed like surely 15amp output of the echo should have at least
maintained the voltage it was at before I left.

So, overall, I'm very happy with my four 100ah LiFePO4 batteries. It
seems I will likely get at least 36 hours domestic use before having to
charge - and I'm sure I have higher than average domestic use. My
batteries have a phone app which is great, tells me the real time
charge/discharge rate, voltage, % use, number of cycles, etc. Yay, no
more guessing on how soon I'll need to charge. So I can see this on a
per-battery basis.

I have a "normal" home refrigerator instead of a propane/120v fridge. It
fills the entire space of the old fridge, so it's not a smaller
apartment fridge. With the fridge running, the draw on each battery is
3.3 amps (x4 = 13.2 amps) and it seems like the fridge runs maybe like
50% of the time.

With fridge off, I'm drawing 1.1amps each battery or 4.4 amps (computer,
monitor, weather station base, clock, etc).

So, after 24 hours, I've used 60% (40% remaining), and so am then at 13v
still. This is also with my furnace fan being on most of the night since
it's been 40-45 degrees at night here.

I've also been able to use my big convection microwave - and so my use
above includes at least 6 minutes use (coffee water 2x daily). And,
during this higher amp use, the voltage stays basically the same as
no-load voltage, so over 13v. And before my micro would sound strange if
I ran it on my lead acid (since the voltage would drop to 11.x?).

As far as charging, they do charge faster, but I'm limited now by the
max 100amp charge of my model 20D inverter/charger. So after 24 hours
use, it took about 2 hrs, 15 mins to charge fully back to 100% on the genny.

Apparently I can run a parallel charger with my inverter, and so am
looking at the iota 90amp charger, so that I can decrease my genny time
daily by almost half. So maybe I'll get 24 hours battery use, with 1.5
hours genny time (yay).

What would really help is if someone has ever installed new lead acid
batteries, and could offer some comparisons. My comparison is coming
from my six 6v golf cart batteries. When I bought my coach 3 years ago
(not new batteries then), I could run on the lead acid batteries for 12
hours, then would charge as it dropped just below 12v. And charge time
on them was fully 1.5 hours until my xantrex panel first indicated float.

Wes Owens
2000 CC Allure 36' #30443
Currently in Arizona, tomorrow in Kino Bay, MX, then after a week headed
south.
Wes Owens
2000 CC Allure 36' #30443
Full time, western US summer, Mexico 6 months over winter.

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #1
Yahoo Message Number: 116765
If you are using LiFePO4 for house batteries . You should not ever use a echo charger. all an echo charger does is let the high voltage battery charge the low voltage battery, so the house batteries would always be charging the lead acid . Also the alt. on the motor will cook the ifePO4 batteries. Install a switch so you can charge the house batteries when needed then turn off when not needed.
2007 allure 470 31490

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #2
Yahoo Message Number: 116769
Hi Tom-

I'm pretty sure the whole point of the echo charger is that the alternator is not connected to the domestic batteries at all, and so the echo allows some charging to happen for the domestic when the engine is running. If the alternator was connected to the domestic bank, then when running, both the start and domestic would be seeing the same voltage and so no point in having a echo-charger.

As far as whether or not to use the echo with LiFePO4, according to the owners manual on the echo, once the output batteries reach 14.4 volts, which happens to be the low end of the final charge voltage for my LiFePO4 batteries (14.4v minimum - 14.7v), the echo will decrease the amps to "float" condition - which is fine and recommended for LiFePO4 batteries. Also the echo will limit the output to 14.4v even if the alternator was to output say 16v.

So, maybe the LiFePO4 batteries are different now than they were when you last researched this. I know with the LiFePO4 batteries I purchased, my inverter/charger has the exact characteristics that match what the batteries require - my guess is that they intentionally designed them this way so that they could be direct swap compatible with no additional/new chargers, etc.

Thanks,
Wes Owens
2000 CC Allure 36' #30443
Wes Owens
2000 CC Allure 36' #30443
Full time, western US summer, Mexico 6 months over winter.

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #3
Yahoo Message Number: 116770
The house batteries are charged by either the alternator while driving, or the inverter/charger when plugged into shore power, or running the generator. Once the house batteries are full, the Echo charger allows the house batteries to flow current to charge the chassis batteries.

Greg
06 Magna

2006 Magna Rembrandt C13
2016 Jeep GC toad

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #4
Yahoo Message Number: 116788
Your echo charger must be different than mine, mine is disconnected and my house batteries charge off the motor. I installed a switch to stop charging when i want to.I got the name off the echo charger and called them and they told me that it sent charge from high voltage set of batteries to low voltage set, goes either way . You can get 50% more charging cycles if you lower the charge voltage to 14.2 max. And this will not lower amps that are available to use at all.

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #5
Yahoo Message Number: 116791
Wes,

This thread is confusing me! I see some can't do's and must do things that don't jive with my reality.

I have LiFePo batteries in my coach for over 3 years now and made no changes to the charging circuits at all. I use the echo charger, I do not have a switch to control of the alternator to command it to charge or not.

I think that the echo charger is to keep your starting battery up to charge while you are plugged in, not to charge your house while driving. There are some that charge both ways but I don't believe that mine does, (xantrax in a 2000 Magna). The Alternator, again what I've been told, charges both banks while you drive, via a solenoid. The amount of charge the alternator is putting out is regulated by the voltage of the battery.

I did not mix my battery types, I don't think it's a good idea. I have LiFePo for both the House and Starting. The Manufacture of my batteries did not restrict that.

Ed 2000 Magna 36
Ed Recknagle
2000 Magna 36  #5738

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #6
Yahoo Message Number: 116792
After the response indicating the echo was to charge the chassis battery - I read the manual introduction for the echo, and indeed, it is designed to charge the chassis batter from the domestic anytime the chassis battery is .5v lower than the domestic. My assumption of it as an isolator from the alternator was incorrect.

And, I had forgotten about the oil pressure switch which triggers the alternator charging the house batteries (I have actually replaced that sensor before).

I use the silverleaf software while driving, and it's consistently showing 13.4-13.7v while driving, which is low enough that it would never be an issue for the LiFePO4 batteries - if anything, it won't fully charge the liFePO4 as to reach full charge it needs a minimum 14.4 volts during charge, and the 13.4-13.7 is the normal float recommended voltage.

So, any concern at this point I have would really be at the 100% charge state on the LiFePO4 of 13.5, will the echo basically overcharge my start battery at that voltage, and I think it won't since usually after full charge on my old lead acid domestic batteries, they would be near 13.5v.

So, it seems that everything should be copacetic as is.

Just a note if anyone was to want to add a in-parallel charger to their system with LiFePO4 - to greatly reduce their charge time while on the genny - The retailer of the batteries I bought indicated to me

We adjust the voltage in the Iota before shipping. You will have 13.8 and 14.4 volts by use of the dual voltage jack.

And they say to not use the iota IQ module - along with a link explaining why not.

Thanks,
Wes Owens
2000 CC Allure 36' #30443
currently in Kino Bay, MX
Wes Owens
2000 CC Allure 36' #30443
Full time, western US summer, Mexico 6 months over winter.

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #7
Yahoo Message Number: 116793
IF you have LiFePo on both you are in good shape us with a mix is the only problem .

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #8
Yahoo Message Number: 116953
Pardon me, Scuz me; I feel I have to revisit this conversation because I should report on some of the things that I have been doing wrong with my LiFePo batteries.

I found this site on another forum and I learned a lot. If you are interested in LFP batteries please take a look. https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

First, I just now disconnected my 'echo charger'. I found out It's not good for LFP batteries. LFP batteries should not be treated like Lead acid batteries. They should not be held to max charge. The echo charger starts when the main bank is over 13.0v and continues to charge with 15a up to 14.4v and then floats to hold a full charge. The main LFP battery bank that the echo draws from is no doubt always over 13v. It may be fine for maintaining your Lead Acid start battery but it will draw from your house battery all the time. And it holds my LFP starter battery at a voltage that's too high (especially if I charge my house battery wrong).

The charge voltage listed for my CALB batteries is 14.4v, which is a setting on my Xantrex inverter/charger "Cool Wet cell", so I've used it. But 'Smart Chargers' are only 'Smart' for LA batteries. The charging instructions for my batteries should say "charge to 14.4v then STOP," Just like a smart phone, or IPad. The Xantrex bulks to 14.4v, then absorbs at that voltage for 1 to 3 hrs, then float starts at 13.5v on the 'cold wet' setting and brings it back up to 14.4v. This can result in lost capacity. The thing that has saved my batteries (if they are ok) is that with the remote, the Xantrex absorb is controlled by voltage not time, so it's very short.
I have changed the setting on the Xantrex to "Warm Wet Cell" which bulks to 14v and has a short to no absorb cycle and the float starts when the battery is down to 3.1v (I think that's practically off). I may try 'Warm Gel' which is 13.8 bulk and 13.3 float (my battery rests at 13.36v). A fully programmable charging system would be best.

I have also changed the way I store the coach, I have a timer on the main power so that it will only charge the battery for a half an hour a day and that's after the background load brings the SOC down to about 50%.

Tom said that you should also have a switch on the Alternator. I don't, but now I have a clue, and I'm going to have one soon. Again the charging parameters on the alternator are just wrong for LFP longevity. And a fully programmable voltage regulator would be best. With a lead acid starting battery, the alternator would be fine if you had a remote solenoid to disconnect the LFP house battery.

The main thing I am trying to learn is to not think like I have Lead acid batteries, that I don't need to have a full charge all the time, the voltage is good and there is lots of capacity even with partial charge. With LFP batteries the thing to consider when choosing charge parameters is maintaining the full capacity of the battery not the SOC.

If I had known all of this before, would I have got into LiFePo batteries? Probably, I'm a gear head. But a lot of folks would not and I believe that's why the battery manufactures don't tell the whole story. And I think that's why charger suppliers have wrong info about charging profiles; even Tesla had to change theirs.

Ed
2000 Magna 5738
800ah house and 400ah start LiFePo
Ed Recknagle
2000 Magna 36  #5738

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #9
Yahoo Message Number: 116954
I thought with some of these more recent advance chargers you could create custom charging profiles

Rich

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #10
Yahoo Message Number: 116955
I think so, A fully programmable charging system is what is needed, for the alternator, charger and solar charger. Just takes money time and effort.
Ed
Ed Recknagle
2000 Magna 36  #5738

Re: Echo-charge question and LiFePO4 update

Reply #11
Yahoo Message Number: 116956
You got it right now. Only thing is you have to think LFP not LA batteries . The change over to LFP will save you a lot of money plus give you more boondock time.