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Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Yahoo Message Number: 26629
I bought my 2004 Allure (#31070)in June of 2004 in Oregon and moved it to Albuquerque. About 14-18 months later, small patches of the black paint that had been exposed to the sun began to crack open.
Investigating, I found out from CC and independent paint experts that this sometimes happens on parts of their coaches painted black when they are exposed to the sun in the hot southwest. All parties agree this is a flaw in the fiberglass they used, but, since they only warranty paint for 12 months, I was out of warranty and they have declined my request for repaint.

Any ideas on where I should go from here? I've thought of going to the state of Oregon and seek help from their Comsumer Affairs Office.
What do you think?
J. Mercer

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 26632
J. Mercer,

More information for you do consider: Flaws in the fiberglass cloth sounds like a finger pointing exercise.
There are two types of cloth weaves - unidirectional and bidirectional with various strands per inch differing in each direction and with various weights. All are coatable. The issue of what is on the surface before the primer and other coats are applied. The final cloth surface must have a coat of epoxy resin applied with the proper filler added.
(A very heavy single piece of cloth maybe used instead of multiple layers of lighter cloth.) Otherwise, the coatings will not adhere. The primer and/or finish coat(s) must contain sufficient titanium dioxide to provide 100% protection from the sun's uv rays; clear coatings applied periodically will not.

Otherwise the cloth rots and blisters occur.
Fred Kovol

"recremm3rc3r" wrote:

Quote
>

I bought my 2004 Allure (#31070)in June of 2004 in Oregon and moved

it

Quote
to Albuquerque. About 14-18 months later, small patches of the

black

Quote
paint that had been exposed to the sun began to crack open.

Investigating, I found out from CC and independent paint experts

that

Quote
this sometimes happens on parts of their coaches painted black when > they are exposed to the sun in the hot southwest. All parties agree > this is a flaw in the fiberglass they used, but, since they only > warranty paint for 12 months, I was out of warranty and they have > declined my request for repaint.
> Any ideas on where I should go from here? I've thought of going to > the state of Oregon and seek help from their Comsumer Affairs

Office.

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 26638
What you are probably encountering is "Thermal checking" looks like little cracks in the paint? CC is not the only Co with this issue, and yes, it is only an issue with dark colors. I will not bore you with the process that causes this problem, however it is an expensive repair. If you only have small areas thet are affected, a qualified body shop that has the understanding about thermal checking can grind dowm the fiberglass and re glass the affected areas, then refinish, and colorsand & polish to factory finish. You will probably be on your own as I know firsthand that other mnfr are declining the repair also.

Brian
04 Allure

Quote
I bought my 2004 Allure (#31070)in June of 2004 in Oregon and

moved it

Quote
to Albuquerque. About 14-18 months later, small patches of the

black

Quote
paint that had been exposed to the sun began to crack open.

Investigating, I found out from CC and independent paint experts

that

Quote
this sometimes happens on parts of their coaches painted black

when

Quote
they are exposed to the sun in the hot southwest. All parties

agree

Quote
this is a flaw in the fiberglass they used, but, since they only > warranty paint for 12 months, I was out of warranty and they have > declined my request for repaint.

Any ideas on where I should go from here? I've thought of going

to

Quote
the state of Oregon and seek help from their Comsumer Affairs

Office.

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 26706
Is there a coating we can use to prevent this damage from happening? I have one of those coaches that whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.

Brian, what is your coach number?

Doris

2006 (Lemon) Inspire 360 Siena 51927

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 27405
Who has said that CC will not honor the paint cracking problem. We have been informed by CC that it is still under consideration.
Well we have found that we are joining the list of coaches with the same problem of cracked paint/fiberglass in the black areas. We have sent pictures to CC who said the problem has not been resolved and that we are added to the list of coaches that need some resolution to the problem. It is now a waiting game until 'the powers to be' decde how they are to handle the problem. Some indication is that it is the fiberglass manufacturers problem, we'll see.
How many of us are there with this problem? Many? Judy & Larry Gallagher
2004 Allure 31097

Quote from: fredkovol
J. Mercer,

More information for you do consider: > Flaws in the fiberglass cloth sounds like a finger pointing

exercise.

Quote
There are two types of cloth weaves - unidirectional and
bidirectional

Quote
with various strands per inch differing in each direction and with > various weights. All are coatable. The issue of what is on the

surface

Quote
before the primer and other coats are applied. The final cloth

surface

Quote
must have a coat of epoxy resin applied with the proper filler

added.

Quote
(A very heavy single piece of cloth maybe used instead of multiple > layers of lighter cloth.) Otherwise, the coatings will not adhere.

The

Quote
primer and/or finish coat(s) must contain sufficient titanium

dioxide

Quote
to provide 100% protection from the sun's uv rays; clear coatings > applied periodically will not.

Otherwise the cloth rots and blisters occur.
Fred Kovol

"recremm3rc3r" wrote:
>

> I bought my 2004 Allure (#31070)in June of 2004 in Oregon and

moved

Quote
it

> to Albuquerque. About 14-18 months later, small patches of the > black

> paint that had been exposed to the sun began to crack open.
>

> Investigating, I found out from CC and independent paint experts > that

> this sometimes happens on parts of their coaches painted black

when

Quote
they are exposed to the sun in the hot southwest. All parties

agree

Quote
this is a flaw in the fiberglass they used, but, since they only > > warranty paint for 12 months, I was out of warranty and they have > > declined my request for repaint.
>

> Any ideas on where I should go from here? I've thought of going

to

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 27406
Larry,

What kind of cracking do you have on the coach? Are all the affected coaches the same type cracks and in the same area ? Some time ago an owner on this site wrote about 70 some coaches affected with fiberglass problems. Has this spilled over to CC ? AL

00 affinity #5851

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 27410
Al they are small cracks 1/4 to 1/2 in. in length all over the lower rear passenger side of the coach particularly in the black painted area on the "Black Tie" paint scheme. We do not know how extensive it is in the motor home industry, just know that we are not the only ones with the problem. We are awaiting CC decision as to what they can do for us.

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 27411
Quote from: Larry Gallagher
>

Al they are small cracks 1/4 to 1/2 in. in length all over the

lower

Quote
rear passenger side of the coach particularly in the black painted

area

Quote
on the "Black Tie" paint scheme. We do not know how extensive it

is in

Quote
the motor home industry, just know that we are not the only ones

with

Quote
the problem. We are awaiting CC decision as to what they can do

for us.

Quote
>

Quote from: Boateral@

>

> Larry,

> What kind of cracking do you have on the coach? Are all the

affected

Quote
coaches

> the same type cracks and in the same area ? Some time ago an

owner

Quote
on this

> site wrote about 70 some coaches affected with fiberglass

problems.

Quote
Has this

> spilled over to CC ?
> AL

> 00 affinity #5851
>
We have friends with a Foretravel which had the same problem in the areas with black paint. They were lucky, discovered it before warranty expired. It was repaired/repainted under warranty.

Brad Ward

2000 36' Magna
Towing 05 Tahoe

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 27424
As a lurker in a dozen motorhome user groups, I see that American Coach (high-end Fleetwood) has this issue in spades, I believe mostly in the 2002 to 2004 timeframe, but don't quote me. They attribute it to the EPA forcing a change in fiberglass manufacturing materials and processes. With the cost to Fleetwood of many tens of thousands of dollars per coach to replace the sides completely (which Fleetwood is accepting as their responsibility), it is causing the company serious financial hardship that they really don't need at the moment with reduced product demand.

One guy was given a date in February to have his coach repaired - 2008, not 2007.

Bill & Debbie in San Diego

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 27899
Thank you, Fred, for your expertise and your contribution. I believe this specific paint flaw is called "checking," which I beleive to be different than the blistering you refer to. The appearance is of multiple minute cracks in the paint, the surface of the paint raises at the edges of the cracks but no blistering that I notice.

Sorry for the delay in response. I am not happy with the new format of the Yahoo Groups and have not found my way around it well, yet.

Regards, Jim

Quote from: fredkovol
J. Mercer,

More information for you do consider: > Flaws in the fiberglass cloth sounds like a finger pointing

exercise.

Quote
There are two types of cloth weaves - unidirectional and
bidirectional

Quote
with various strands per inch differing in each direction and with > various weights. All are coatable. The issue of what is on the

surface

Quote
before the primer and other coats are applied. The final cloth

surface

Quote
must have a coat of epoxy resin applied with the proper filler

added.

Quote
(A very heavy single piece of cloth maybe used instead of multiple > layers of lighter cloth.) Otherwise, the coatings will not adhere.

The

Quote
primer and/or finish coat(s) must contain sufficient titanium

dioxide

Quote
to provide 100% protection from the sun's uv rays; clear coatings > applied periodically will not.

Otherwise the cloth rots and blisters occur.
Fred Kovol

"recremm3rc3r" wrote:
>

> I bought my 2004 Allure (#31070)in June of 2004 in Oregon and

moved

Quote
it

> to Albuquerque. About 14-18 months later, small patches of the > black

> paint that had been exposed to the sun began to crack open.
>

> Investigating, I found out from CC and independent paint experts > that

> this sometimes happens on parts of their coaches painted black

when

Quote
they are exposed to the sun in the hot southwest. All parties

agree

Quote
this is a flaw in the fiberglass they used, but, since they only > > warranty paint for 12 months, I was out of warranty and they

have

Quote
declined my request for repaint.
>

> Any ideas on where I should go from here? I've thought of going

to

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 27900
Larry:

CC told me they would not fix the paint problem, but they did say they would add my name to a list of those affected. However, I did not understand this to be a committment to fix the problem. That was probably deliberate because they cannot know at this point what the outcome of their negotiations with the fiberglass manyfacturer will be. NOTE: National RV, a sister company to CC, also had fiberglass problems, although apparently not of this magnitude. Their solution was to first make the customer happy by fixing the problem, then suing the fiberglass manufacturer. Now THAT is customer service! Further, I discussed this paint "checking" with a local expert. He said the repaint is massively expensive, since they must totally rework the surface of the fiberglass before repaint.

I do not know how widespread the problem is, but I suspect it is affecting quite a few motorhomes, since full body paint and darker colors are now in vogue. Moreover, in my discussions with CC, they indicated to me this was not unusual for dark paint exposed to the sun for extended periods, and it was not uncommon for it NOT to appear until after the one year warranty had expired.

A company fully aware of a systemic flaw that often does not occur until after the paint warranty has expired is not treating its customers properly by simply saying they will add our name to a list. That is no solution. My motorhome is still sitting here with egregious flaws in the paint that should be an embarrassment to a good company like Country Coach.

Let' hope someone figures out a way to help us both, Larry, and the many others out there with this problem. Thanks for your contribution.

Quote from: Larry Gallagher
>

Who has said that CC will not honor the paint cracking problem. We > have been informed by CC that it is still under consideration.
Well we have found that we are joining the list of coaches with

the

Quote
same problem of cracked paint/fiberglass in the black areas. We

have

Quote
sent pictures to CC who said the problem has not been resolved and > that we are added to the list of coaches that need some resolution

to

Quote
the problem. It is now a waiting game until 'the powers to be'

decde

Quote
how they are to handle the problem. Some indication is that it is

the

Quote
fiberglass manufacturers problem, we'll see.
How many of us are there with this problem? Many? > Judy & Larry Gallagher
2004 Allure 31097

[quote author=fredkovol"

>

> J. Mercer,

> More information for you do consider: > > Flaws in the fiberglass cloth sounds like a finger pointing > exercise.

> There are two types of cloth weaves - unidirectional and > bidirectional

> with various strands per inch differing in each direction and

with

Quote
various weights. All are coatable. The issue of what is on the > surface

> before the primer and other coats are applied. The final cloth > surface

> must have a coat of epoxy resin applied with the proper filler > added.

> (A very heavy single piece of cloth maybe used instead of

multiple

Quote
layers of lighter cloth.) Otherwise, the coatings will not

adhere.

Quote
The

> primer and/or finish coat(s) must contain sufficient titanium > dioxide

> to provide 100% protection from the sun's uv rays; clear

coatings

Quote
applied periodically will not.
> Otherwise the cloth rots and blisters occur.
> Fred Kovol
>

> "recremm3rc3r" wrote:
> >

> > I bought my 2004 Allure (#31070)in June of 2004 in Oregon and > moved
> it

> > to Albuquerque. About 14-18 months later, small patches of

the

Quote
black

> > paint that had been exposed to the sun began to crack open.
> >

> > Investigating, I found out from CC and independent paint

experts

Quote
that

> > this sometimes happens on parts of their coaches painted black > when

> > they are exposed to the sun in the hot southwest. All parties > agree

> > this is a flaw in the fiberglass they used, but, since they

only

Quote
> warranty paint for 12 months, I was out of warranty and they

have

Quote
> declined my request for repaint.
> >

> > Any ideas on where I should go from here? I've thought of

going

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 27902
Hi Jim,

Checking occurs on airplane surfaces that vibrate or flex without sufficent fiberglass layups under the coating. Sanding to the fiberglass, filling with a epoxy/filler(cabosil), sanding until the surface is flat and no fiberglass can be seen, application of white primer with TiO2, then finish coats. That's the procedure for experminental aircraft to prevent UV deteriation or defects in the coating. Hope this is a little better explaination. I would be curious how CCI, etc approaches this in manufacturering. Maybe the fiberglass comes precoated, but freshly cut edges need the epoxy/filler and TiO2 primer treatment if exposed to UV. It maybe, their primer coating is specially formulated for the RV industry. Refriburishing the surface is labor intensive, an acquired art, costly coatings, and for large surfaces requires a large investiment in tooling.
Fred Kovol

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 29064
I just discovered this on our '05 Intrigue Kona paint job. It's only on the side that's been in the sun for the last two seasons. I didn't see it when I waxed the coach in August so it must have started since then. I'm contacting CC to see what they say.

Bob

'05 Intrigue 11872

Quote from: Larry Gallagher

Re: Manufacturing Defect in Paint CC Will Not Honor

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30684
I was sifting through these old posts and found this one from Doris.

It appears from all I can find out that the problem is not the paint nor is it due to any errors made by CC in applying the paint -- it is rather a flaw in the underlying fiberglass material. The fiberglas panels have threads of fiberglass running throught them, and under the conditions I described (dark paint/lots of direct sunlight), the threads separate from the matrix they are imbedded in and raise, thus causing the "checking" appearance.

So I'm quite sure there's is no coating that can be applied which will correct this problem. I believe that if you have a light colored coach, or a dark coach that is stored out of the sun, you should be OK. But that's just a guess.

Jim Mercer

Albuquerque, NM (where it's hard to stay out of the sun) 2004 Allure/Newport (#31070)

Quote from: Doris
Is there a coating we can use to prevent this damage from
happening? I

Quote
have one of those coaches that whatever can go wrong, will go

wrong.