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Fuel tank sending unit location

Yahoo Message Number: 29875
To all

Read the applicable posts regarding the fuel gauge reading high and am guessing the sending unit has gone south for the summer. Past postings indicate that the sending unit is easily accessable for inspection. Before I jack the coach up to get underneath, I'm curious about the location.

Is there an access panel somewhere or do you have to come up from underneath the coach to get at the top of the fuel tank? Also, I'm guessing that it's on the driver side.

Thanks in advance

Ron Gates

2000 Intrigue 10936

Re: Fuel tank sending unit location

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 29883
Ron,

You won't need to jack the coach up. Just reach over the propane tank and over the frame where the tank is mounted. You will see about a 5 inch panel with some wires attached. I think there are three screws to remove. It really comes out very quickly, hardest part is leaning againt the propane tank while doing the removal. I believe it took me about half an hour to replace mine on a 2000 Intrigue. CC will ship the sender unit to you, when I purchased I believe it was around $35 dollars but not sure of that. Mine was also reading near max all the time, the replacement of the sender unit fixed that problem.

Ray

2000 Intrigue 11040

fuel

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30063
Can anyone tell me about "LOW SULFUR OR ULTRA LOW SULFUR DIESEL"

Thanks

Charlie & Lorraine Zecman
2002 Magna # 6162
Florida

Re: fuel

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30080
First of March I had Cummins replace my lift pump because of a fuel leak. Leak was evidently caused by the ULS diesel fuel. My unit is a '99 Allure with the Cummins 330 ISC. Cost was about $650 with the biggest cost going to labor. Just made a 2200+ miles run to Florida and back with no fuel leak at the new pump.

Egon

Re: fuel

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30084
What do you want to know about it?
ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) is federally mandated for all engines manufactured after January 1, 2007. Since it is 'allegedly' fine in older engines, you probably will not be able to find any of the old 'Low Sulfur' fuel. I think the Sulfur limit on USLD is 50 ppm and the old stuff may be somewhere around 500 ppm.
The actual effects on older engines is yet to be determined, although there have been stories of CC owners developing fuel leaks because the ULSD seems to have eaten the gasket in their fuel pumps.
The new engines require a new design, and it will probably take a few years to work all the bugs out of them.

Not a great time to buy a diesel, old or new...

John 04 Inspire 51078

Re: fuel

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30097
Egon,

If your assumption is correct and the fuel (lift) pump failed because of the low sulfur content it would make sense that your fuel injection pump will be the next fuel item to fail because of the lack of sulfur in the fuel. I'm still using the old type diesel fuel; please let us know what the next fuel component that fails.

Paul Resnick

1998 Intrique 10487

Re: fuel

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30099
Hmmmm-- this is the first that I have heard about the injector pump leaking. Everybody that has talked about this and has had leakage, it was always the lift pump. In talking with the techs at Cummins in Houston I believe that it is only the lift pump.
If the leaking is going to go to the injector pump, then we need to go to Cummins in mass for some type of help or go to a class action suit.
I did not mind too much to pay the $650 for the lift pump, but if I am going to have to shell out for an injector pump also, I will not be a happy camper.
Egon

'99 Allure #30321 with new lift pump and no leaks so far, 2500 miles since replacement.

Re: fuel

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30101
Egon:

I had the same reaction to Paul's comment. Cummins has turned circumspect on the subject. First they put out an Early Warning Notice about two years ago that said ULSD could cause the lift pump seal to leak because the lower sulfer content caused the seal to shrink. It did not say anything about the injection pump and in all the posts on this forum I can not recall anyone attributing injection pump failure to ULSD.

Lift pump failure was discussed at length in the Cummins seminar at JI. Despite the Early Warning Notice, the presenter, Tim Kelly, had a difficult time blaming ULSD for lift pump failure. He said there had been relatively few and in most cases only fuel seepage had resulted. Seemed like Cummins was backing away from the Early Warning Notice.

Did you discuss just changing the seal when you had yours replaced? Other than the obvious increase in sales, I don't understand why the entire pump has to be replaced because a $6 seal is leaking. Just my HO.

I guess if others are experiencing failures beyond the lift pump I/we would like to hear about it.

Bob Amory

2002 Allure 30760, 350 ISC

Re: fuel

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30103
Its not Cummins fault the Fed. Govt has dictated demands again that places the American owners of Diesel RV's in the breach. You forget the last go around which forced owners of 7.3 liter powered vehicles to bite the bullet. The Oil companies are supposed to be adding lubricants to supplement the fuel to prevent engine block component deterioration, but have the chemists involved on all sides taken into account the shrinkage of gaskets? Whose to blame, Cummins, CAT, Detroit, etc, etc. I would like to hear from those who were involved in developing this new fuel and the standards they set forth for an answer. If a lift pump or fuel pump supplies insufficient fuel under inadequate pressure, then the injection pump will fail, this we know. So it behooves us to keep our eyes open, just as we should beware of any other symptoms that might cause other systems to fail and thus injure our pocket books..

TWI 2004 Intrigue, 11731

Re: fuel

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30119
Read archives of CatRV club on Yahoo. Cummins lift pump failures have been well covered. If you can access pump & can get the correct gaskets, repair may be in order rather than replacement.
My Cat C9 is making over 6.3 M/G with 1% 10W30 oil in fuel. 5.3 M/G without oil. Maybe the added oil will save injectors & pump?

"Egon Schlottmann,

"Hmmmm-- this is the first that I have heard about the injector pump "leaking. Everybody that has talked about this and has had leakage, it "was always the lift pump. In talking with the techs at Cummins in "Houston I believe that it is only the lift pump.

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30128
It is logical that the fuel injector pump will at the very least be under stress using ULS fuel? All injector pumps rely to some degree on the sulfur in the fuel for lubrication. Some rely totally on the fuel for lubrication.

In addition to the Cummins 8.3 in our Intrigue we also have a Dodge with a 5.9 Cummins. True, a smaller engine but virtually the same design except for size. On my Dodge the lift pump failed after about 20,000 miles of ULS fuel. I replaced it and within 15,000 miles the injector pump failed. On the Dodge the injector pump depends totally on the fuel for lubrication. The lift pump was $500.00 and the injector pump was $3,600.00.
Will the same thing happen to my Intrigue? Sadly, I think it is very possible/logical and so do the techs at Cummins in Ft. Meyers, FL and in Jacksonville, FL and Novi, MI. They all think it is only a function of time and miles.

So what do we do? I for one have followed some advise I have found on the Cummins Diesel Forum http://www.cumminsforum.com . There appears to be several relatively knowledgeable people on the forum and there is a lot of information on ULS fuel in their database.
There is a consensus that adding a quart of "ashless" 2-cycle oil to every 25 gallons of diesel fuel will both help to lubricate the pump and help to keep the nitrile seals from shrinking. There are those on the forum that claim to have been doing this for years to add longevity to the both of the fuel pumps.
If you check with Cummins you will find it is acceptable to add up to 5% of crankcase oil to the fuel with no harm. In fact many of you are aware that they sell systems to large fleets that continually pump used crankcase oil into the fuel while adding fresh oil to the crankcase. This is purported to allow them to never do oil changes but instead only change filters. Many large fleets pay Cummins to add this system the their new vehicles before they put them on the road. Bottom line, it is apparently safe to add used oil to the fuel and this used oil has all kind of contaminants that do not exist in fresh oil.

If this is the case then I feel quite safe adding ashless 2-cyle oil to my fuel and this is exactly what I am doing. One gallon to a tank which is only about 1% and I may bump it to 2%. I am using my Dodge as a test vehicle and have been adding 2 quarts of ashless 2-cycle oil to 25 gallons for the last 34k miles with no known problems.

One side benefit that I have noticed is a 1.8 mile per gallon increase in fuel mileage on my truck and this has been consistent over the 34k miles since I started doing it. I will head north from Florida in my Intrigue later this month plan to add 2 gallons of ashless 2-cycle oil to my tank each time I fill it.

One could use any oil (even used) but the ashless 2-cycle oil is intended to be burned in combustion engines. I use ashless to reduce the chance of deposits on the upper cylinder parts and to help protect emissions.

I would be very interested in any thoughts any of you might have.

Joey & Debi

'98 Intrigue 10540

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30129
---Wow I do love this group. Joey you get my tech. award for this year so far. I agree and your write up makes sense. Thanks for the time and effort. Were did you buy the 2 cycle ashless oil? Do you have a brand that you like?

Thanks again Jim Spivey Allure 31432

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30131
I have been using about a qt. of auto trans fluid to a full tank of fuel and I have been doing this for years. I picked up the idea from otr truckers a long time ago.

No problems that I am aware of. Most problems that we RVers encounter are probably the result of too few miles put on the rigs.
Ron

98 Allure 30185

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30138
WHAT TYPE OF TRANS FLUID DO U USE?

Charlie & Lorraine Zecman
2002 Magna # 6162
Florida

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30142
I use QUICKSILVER Marine Lubricants Premium 2-Cycle Outboard Oil. It is available in gallons ($16.95) from Sams Club and Costco. It is a product of Mercury Marine. I DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC 2-CYCLE OIL (see below).

I have found the list below on the Dodge Cummins forum:

1. Quicksilver Marine Premium 2 cycle outboard oil (the one above)
2. Pennzoil Premium Outdoor/multipurpose 2-cycle TC-W3, also labeled Pennzoil Premium Outboard/Multipurpose 2-Cycle
3. Quaker State Small Engine Universal 2-cycle engine oil
4. Super Tech Universal 2-cycle engine oil

All the above are similar and contain roughly 80% highly refined lubricating oil and 20% solvent with a small fraction of dye. All of these oils are certified TC-W3 and have dual ratings for use in both water coolded and air cooled applications. They exceed the TC-W3 ratings and are also rated certified according the the JASO standards FA & FB, API TC-W3 and Service Level 1C, NMMA and BIA and are Category 3 rated.
 I am confident there are many other good oils available. Be certian to look for TC-W3 (Standard that includes ashless as one of the parameters). Most ashless oils will also state "Ashless" somewhere on the label.

SYNTHETIC 2-CYCLE OIL:

Undoubtedly, a question will come up regarding Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil since synthetic oil nearly always has claims of cleaner and more lubricity. My belief is DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC 2-Cycle in a diesel UNTIL SPECIFIC TESTS HAVE BEEN CONDUCTED. The majority of synthetic
2-cycle oils contain an additive pack rich in detergents. At the 2-
cycle level, based on the average piston temps reached in most 2- cycle applications, this is not a problem. At higher average piston temperatures, the detergents contained in the additive packs of many synthetics could encounter problems. Detergents contain metallic- based compounds. When burned, they leave an ash deposit which can build up, and in 2-cycle applications, this can result in spark plug fouling and exhaust port plugging. Both conditions, lead to lost power and eventually engine failure. I believe highway diesel piston temps run higher for longer periods of time than air or water cooled 2 cycle gas engines. I am not aware of any specific testing but IMHO the higher temp may lead to deposits on piston and exhaust valves.

Please understand, I am not an expert but only an avid reader and collector of information and have spent 35 years in the automotive industry. I am not an engineer but an avid automotive restorer and automotive component rebuilder. Herein, I am explaining what I am doing to help protect my pre-2007 engines from damage due to ULSD based on what I have found in literature and on web sites. It sounds logical and safe to me. One thing I can say absolutely is that if your lift pump begins to fail and loses pressure you WILL damage your injector pump and if either lose lubrication they will fail. The primary purpose of the sulfur that has been removed from ULSD fuel was lubrication. I am trying to take a positive step to replace the lubrication of components and hopefully stop seals from drying/shrinking and leaking on my vehicles. Only time will tell if these steps are effective.

I also value your opinions. If you reply PLEASE snip or delete most of my message above because it is long and only needs to be read once rather than clogging up the forum by being repeated in replys.

Joey & Debi

'98 Intrigue 10540

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30143
Does the trans fluid you are using contain a high level of detergents as in most trans fluids? My research indicates taht the detergents (typically metal based additives that can leave deposits at high temperaturs) can leave deposits behind at the combustion chamber temperatures that our engines run at.
What are the benefits you see from running a quart of trans oil to a tank (very low ration of oil to fuel)? Do you have any opinon as to trand fluid vs. 2-cycle oil? Is it possible that trans fluid is a better solution?

Joey & Debi

'98 Intrigue 10540

Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30145
Why use expensive low ash oil as fuel additive? How is this better than 10W30 engine oil?

Why use automatic transmission hydraulic fluid (ATF) as fuel additive? Do the clutch friction additives in ATF not damage injection system parts? How is this better than 10W30 engine oil?
Truckers used ATF years ago in engines with oil lubed, loose tolerance, mechanical injection systems, not on current engines.
If Cat & Cummins allow use of used crankcase oil in fuel, how does that permit use of ATF in fuel? Maybe we could also use synthetic turbine oil in fuel because diesel crankcase oil is allowed?

Until I learn more from Cat & Cummins, only diesel engine oil or gasoline engine oil will be added to my fuel.

Eric Lee Elliott
5 Inspire 51321
Caterpillar C9

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30147
Joey I found a Amsoil product just for this purpose. The product is a diesel concentrate for low sulfur fuel. I like this company as they make the Trans. oil. I also like all Merc. products. Do you know of any reason not to use this product? I am no expert, and was follwoing your lead, so your opinion is much apprecated.

Thank you,

Jim Spivey Allure 31432

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30148
go to AMSOIL WEB page, look up Diesel Fuel additives and read what they have to say. i am interested in your opinion?

Thank you,

Jim Spivey

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30152
Nothing special just what ever I happen to pick up at the time I think of it. One thing to think about though is my engine is total mechanical and yours is not and this might make a difference? I don't know. I bought this coach because I didn't want an electronic engine, Just old fashioned I guess?
Ron 98 Allure 30185

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30154
I don't think it really makes a whole lot of difference. I just started with trans fluid years ago and it seems to work for me. May not be the right thing in later electronic engines though? Ron 98 Allure 30185

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30157
One thing I once heard against using trans fluid, is that it's not made to burn. Two cycle oil sounds better to me because it is made to "burn"

Larry 03 Allure 30856

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30160
Cummins recoomended to me that I use Fleetguard Fleet-Tech diesel additive to give more lubrication AND replace my water fuel separator with the FS-20,000 filter that adds additional lubrication.

Steve Brown

04' Inspire #51168

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30161
I have been reading all the messages about ULS fuels. I just called Cummings and the teck rep said that he has been receiving many calls on the subject. Their possion is that the new fuels meet Cummings specs and feel that there is no need to add oil for engines older than 2007 The 2007 is a different animal because off the government requirements.

fritz 98 allure 30223

Re: Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel and Fuel Pumps

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 30162
This was the same information I received from Cummins!

Gordon Hertz

2003 Intrigue #11587