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Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Yahoo Message Number: 35843
I have made it a rule to never back up a motorcoach towing a toad, due to the possibility of the tire caster spinning the toad's steering wheel and doing damage to the toad steering.
But just yesterday I saw a coach pull into an RV site here at Buckhorn Lake RV Resort and then back up 7-10 feet with the toad attached.

What have other people experienced? Okay to back up a limited distance if, let's say, you follow the same reverse track?
One time I pulled straight-in next to a gas island, and overshot the diesel pump by 8-12 feet. I detached the toad and backed up. Could I have safely gone straight back that limited distance.

What are the rules you follow?
Herb

2007 Allure #31466
2006 GMC Envoy

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35844
Herb

I too have done it or attemped to do. If in a straight line it seems to work OK for a short distance if not soft ground. If in the middle of a turn of some degree, then

NO. At least in my experience. If I do have to, my wife or I will go back and watch the car to make sure the wheels track straight.

ddtuttle

(aka Billy Byte, trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35846
I could my Mercury Grand Marquis, with my 36' Allure a couple 100 yards with no effort. The Saturn L300 wagon maybe 100 ft with either the Allure or Intrigue. The Odessy may be two car lengths. It's not the coaches or hitches, but the front geometry of the car in tow. I won't attempt anymore without some watching closely in direct communication.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731.

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35848
Hi Herb:

Like you I try to avoid backing with toad. But that has not stopped me from doing it occasionally. I try to watch the toad carefully and stop when it starts to go off line. Can usually get 5 to 10 feet.
Once in Alaska this summer, after backing up a few feet I found that the toad stearing was hyperextended to the passenger side and from the marks on the ground the front wheels had been sliding on the ground. Was on dirt so I don't think I lost too much rubber and found no immediately apparent damage, but I would not think this could be good. I had not observed the condition from the cockpit of the MH, so posting a person to watch the toad is a good idea.

On one other occasion we backed up about 20 feet using this technique. We started the toad engine so the power stearing would work, and the campground owner supervised my spouse who did the stearing to keep us going in the proper direction. In theory I this should work over almost any distance, except that my wife isn't all that fond of the idea. She worries, perhaps rightfully so, about energy being Transferred to the stearing gear that could cause the stearing wheel to spin and inflict injury to her. Also been worried about bending or damaging in some other way the tow bar, but has not happened.

Would be interested in others experiences too.

Bob Amory

02 Allure, 30760

Quote from: Herb & Melitta\[br\
Strandberg"] >

I have made it a rule to never back up a motorcoach towing a toad,

due

Quote
to the possibility of the tire caster spinning the toad's steering > wheel and doing damage to the toad steering.

But just yesterday I saw a coach pull into an RV site here at

Buckhorn

Quote
Lake RV Resort and then back up 7-10 feet with the toad attached.

What have other people experienced? Okay to back up a limited > distance if, let's say, you follow the same reverse track? >

One time I pulled straight-in next to a gas island, and overshot

the

Quote
diesel pump by 8-12 feet. I detached the toad and backed up.

Could I

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35851

A heavy towed car can bend the tow bar quite easily if the wheels turn while backing. I had it happen once - expensive lesson.
SLOW and straight back isn't usually a problem for short distances but any turn or steering correction you might make, a loose dirt or sand surface, uneven pavement, etc can cause the front wheels of the towed car to start dragging. Having someone watch is a good idea.
I don't unhook unless there is no other way and have safely backed up 20+ feet with no problem.

Bob Handren

'05 Country Coach Inspire 51178
'00 JGCL

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35857
One thing you might consider, is that pulling on the lock pin is not the same a pushing on it. You only have to pull the weight of the tow, but when you push you can get some drag from the turned wheel, or from a soft soil that the tow may be in. Be careful, I find just unhitching to be as easy.

Thank you, Jim Spivey

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35859
Herb -

Tow truck drivers, when towing a vehicle backwards, will take a rope and tie the steering wheel off by shutting the door on the rope with enough knots to prevent the swing from starting, or the side view mirror I would limit backing to a straight line. You might ask a professional big rig driver that happens to be driving a set of doubles, how he does it or a mid western farmer with two hay wagons.

George and Frances
35 ft SOB

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35860
I tow a 4700lb Explorer and have backed up many times carefully. The Explorer is bad backing up as the wheels want to cramp. That is turn quickly. Several times I have carefully slid the front end of the toad a small distance. I am on my third Explorer toad and so far no problems in over 100 thousand miles of towing. But I do it very carefully. One time I did back out of a parking lot and into the street. That took a long time. I probably should have not been so lazy. But my emphasis is on carefully.
Jerry Wessel

2000 American Tradition

1995 Intrigue preparing for a missionary 2004 Eddie Bauer Explorer toad.

Quote
--- In Country-Coach- Owners@yahoogrou ps.com, "Herb & Melitta > Strandberg" wrote:
>

> I have made it a rule to never back up a motorcoach towing a

toad,

Quote
due

> to the possibility of the tire caster spinning the toad's

steering

Quote
wheel and doing damage to the toad steering.
>

> But just yesterday I saw a coach pull into an RV site here at > Buckhorn

> Lake RV Resort and then back up 7-10 feet with the toad attached.
>

> What have other people experienced? Okay to back up a limited > > distance if, let's say, you follow the same reverse track? > >

> One time I pulled straight-in next to a gas island, and overshot > the

> diesel pump by 8-12 feet. I detached the toad and backed up.
Could I

> have safely gone straight back that limited distance.
>

> What are the rules you follow? > >

> Herb

> 2007 Allure #31466
> 2006 GMC Envoy
>

Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo!
Mail. See how.

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35865
Don,

Whats the difference between pushing the Toad with the engine running and someone steering it, and backing the Toad up in a straight line?

Dan 06 Intrigue 11936

Quote from: Don Seager
Hi Herb,

A common supermarket shopping cart is a good example of the
dynamics involved on a smaller and somewhat exaggerated scale. The front wheels are casters and aptly named. Next time that you are in a supermarket run the cart ahead until the front wheels are straight and aligned with the back wheels. Now go around to the front and see how far you can push the cart backwards without the front wheels turning around backwards.

Quote
>

One problem with backing the tow is that people do it at a very
slow careful pace and that hides some of the forces that are actually being applied to the front end of the tow as well as the hitch. On good way to break a wrist is to start the tow and try steering it to keep the wheels straight. When those front wheels decide to try and turn around backwards they mean business.

Quote
>

It is the caster angle that allows the front wheels to turn in
the direction that the coach is turning. A good thing in the forward direction but a bad thing backing up. It is never safe to back up with the tow hitched. The best you can hope for is to get away with it.

Quote
>

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

I have made it a rule to never back up a motorcoach towing a

toad, due

Quote
to the possibility of the tire caster spinning the toad's

steering

Quote
wheel and doing damage to the toad steering.

But just yesterday I saw a coach pull into an RV site here at

Buckhorn

Quote
Lake RV Resort and then back up 7-10 feet with the toad attached.

What have other people experienced? Okay to back up a limited > distance if, let's say, you follow the same reverse track? >

One time I pulled straight-in next to a gas island, and overshot

the

Quote
diesel pump by 8-12 feet. I detached the toad and backed up.

Could I

Back up a toad attached to a motorcoach - the answer

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35872
You all are making this far too difficult!
I simply release the brake on the coach, hop in my Honda CR-v, start the engine, put it in reverse, and pull. Works like a champ.

Or not.

Jay in St Augustine (72 degrees and sunny) 05 Inspire daVinci 51457

Quote
I have made it a rule to never back up a motorcoach towing a > toad, due

> to the possibility of the tire caster spinning the toad's > steering

> wheel and doing damage to the toad steering.
>

> But just yesterday I saw a coach pull into an RV site here at > Buckhorn

> Lake RV Resort and then back up 7-10 feet with the toad

attached.

Quote

> What have other people experienced? Okay to back up a limited > > distance if, let's say, you follow the same reverse track? > >

> One time I pulled straight-in next to a gas island, and

overshot

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35878
Don,

Excellent illustration! Vehicle caster and Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) is the reason you do not back up a towed vehicle. Anyone that has done it without incident has been lucky so far.

Jim Hughes

2000 Allure #30511

Steering Axis Inclination

Quote from: Don Seager
Hi Herb,

A common supermarket shopping cart is a good example of the
dynamics involved on a smaller and somewhat exaggerated scale. The front wheels are casters and aptly named. Next time that you are in a supermarket run the cart ahead until the front wheels are straight and aligned with the back wheels. Now go around to the front and see how far you can push the cart backwards without the front wheels turning around backwards.

Quote
>

One problem with backing the tow is that people do it at a very
slow careful pace and that hides some of the forces that are actually being applied to the front end of the tow as well as the hitch. On good way to break a wrist is to start the tow and try steering it to keep the wheels straight. When those front wheels decide to try and turn around backwards they mean business.

Quote
>

It is the caster angle that allows the front wheels to turn in
the direction that the coach is turning. A good thing in the forward direction but a bad thing backing up. It is never safe to back up with the tow hitched. The best you can hope for is to get away with it.

Quote
>

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

I have made it a rule to never back up a motorcoach towing a

toad, due

Quote
to the possibility of the tire caster spinning the toad's

steering

Quote
wheel and doing damage to the toad steering.

But just yesterday I saw a coach pull into an RV site here at

Buckhorn

Quote
Lake RV Resort and then back up 7-10 feet with the toad attached.

What have other people experienced? Okay to back up a limited > distance if, let's say, you follow the same reverse track? >

One time I pulled straight-in next to a gas island, and overshot

the

Quote
diesel pump by 8-12 feet. I detached the toad and backed up.

Could I

Re: Back up a toad attached to a motorcoach - the answer

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35882
Don Where is your tongue? Securely in your cheek?

ddtuttle

(aka Billy Byte, trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443

Re: Back up a toad attached to a motorcoach - the answer

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35887
I'm with you Don. That's one hella of a 4 cylinder Honda.
Chuck
04 Allure

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35897
Don, my question wasn't worded very well. I would just think that someone in the drivers seat could steer the toad and keep it from going off course. With that being said, I know absolutely nothing about how a vehicles steering works. After reading the other responses in the thread I'm beginning to get the "vibe" that it's not a good idea. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my very vague question. And I didn't think you were being "testy" and I sure hope you didn't think I was being sarcastic.

Dan 06 Intrigue 11936

Quote from: Don Seager
Dan,
> I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your question. If you push
the toad with the engine running and someone steering it, then if the toad wheels do caster there is a good chance that the person steering it could not control the very strong and fast spin on the steering wheel. I read that as part 1 of the comparison leaving backing the toad up in a straight line as part 2 of the comparison. Well clearly you can not back the toad up in a straight line with it firmly attached to a 22 ton vehicle so I assume that you meant to back the coach up with the toad in a straight line.

Quote
>

Adding a person in the toad with the engine running and trying to
steer it subtracts little from the dangers involved if your idea of straight and the toads idea as well as the coach's don't agree. If they do then backing the coach with the toad attached is in my opinion just as I said. Yes you can get away with it some of the time but not all of the time.

Quote
>

Then of course you could put someone in the toad with the engine
running and in reverse and attempt to back the coach up at the same time. That to me is a long distance throttle coordination problem that isn't going to happen with my toad, hitch, and coach. Anything out of sync and the coach will win that one every time.

Quote
>

Another thing to consider in the physics of the thing is the
difference in the height of the hitch at the toad and the coach. I had my coach in for service at Cross Roads RV in MA once when a coach came in for repairs on the hitch and the rear of the coach. In backing it up with the toad attached the hitch buckled bending the 4 in receiver tube right up into the rear end of the coach causing body damage. Yes that's right bent the 4 in tubular steel receiver bar.
His tow vehicle was way to low for the coach and he should have had a drop extension installed.

Quote
>

With the worries that I hear on the group over things like a lost
quart of oil or 230 degree tranny temps I can't believe that anyone would risk backing the coach up with the toad attached period.

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35911
I have backed the coach and toad 40' once when I was stuck in a Flying J line and had no choice (the semi in front if me was backing up). By judicious manipulation of the coach steering I kept it pretty straight. I would not make a habit of it. I have backed up 8-10 feet on a few occasions and if you are square when you start it works ok.
I try not to plan for the event.
Bob

'05 Intrigue 11872

Quote from: Herb & Melitta\[br\
Strandberg"]

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 36064
I got stuck in Mexico and had to do a u-turn.
I turned the wheels as far as possible and pulled forward until I couldn't go any more. Then turned the wheels the other way and backed up until the toad was close to hitting the bumper, and turned the steering wheel the other way and pulled forward as far as possible.
Then turned the wheel back the other way and backed up again until bumper was close to car. Took about 5 minutes but I made it.
Got a big cheer from the 5th wheel guys I was traveling with.
Denny 94 Affinity

Quote from: Bob Stephens
> > I have backed the coach and toad 40' once when I was stuck in a Flying > J line and had no choice (the semi in front if me was backing up). By > judicious manipulation of the coach steering I kept it pretty > straight. I would not make a habit of it. I have backed up 8-10 feet > on a few occasions and if you are square when you start it works ok.
I try not to plan for the event.

Bob

'05 Intrigue 11872

Quote from: Herb & Melitta
Strandberg"
erg"]
>

> I have made it a rule to never back up a motorcoach towing a toad,

due

Quote
to the possibility of the tire caster spinning the toad's steering > > wheel and doing damage to the toad steering.
>

> But just yesterday I saw a coach pull into an RV site here at

Buckhorn

Quote
Lake RV Resort and then back up 7-10 feet with the toad attached.
>

> What have other people experienced? Okay to back up a limited > > distance if, let's say, you follow the same reverse track? > >

> One time I pulled straight-in next to a gas island, and overshot the > > diesel pump by 8-12 feet. I detached the toad and backed up.

Could I

Re: Can you back up a toad attached to a motorcoach?

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 36077
Backing a toad is not a good thing. The problem is that the front wheels of a car are designed to caster. Like casters on furniture, they try to turn when you reverse the direction of travel. Castering allows the wheels to turn to follow the tow vehicle. When you back up the wheels try to reverse their caster which means they turn the opposite way from the way you want them to go when backing. If the tires are on dirt or a loose surface they turn as far as they can go, in the wrong direction, then the tires slide sideways on the ground.
If there is good traction, like on pavement this can cause real damage to the toad sinc sliding sideways puts tremendous side pressure on your steering components. I once saw the front wheel assembly break off completely when the ball joints snapped.
You might get away with backing a few feet but very soon you will see the toad front wheels turning the wrong way and trying to slide.

Quote from: Denny & Debra Lind
>

I got stuck in Mexico and had to do a u-turn.
I turned the wheels as far as possible and pulled forward until I > couldn't go any more. Then turned the wheels the other way and

backed

Quote
up until the toad was close to hitting the bumper, and turned the > steering wheel the other way and pulled forward as far as possible.
Then turned the wheel back the other way and backed up again until > bumper was close to car. Took about 5 minutes but I made it.
Got a big cheer from the 5th wheel guys I was traveling with.
Denny 94 Affinity

[quote author=Bob Stephens"

>

> I have backed the coach and toad 40' once when I was stuck in a

Flying

Quote
J line and had no choice (the semi in front if me was backing

up). By

Quote
judicious manipulation of the coach steering I kept it pretty > > straight. I would not make a habit of it. I have backed up 8-10

feet

Quote
on a few occasions and if you are square when you start it works

ok.

Quote
I try not to plan for the event.
>
> Bob

> '05 Intrigue 11872
>
>
>
>

[quote author=Herb & Melitta
> Strandberg"]
> >

> > I have made it a rule to never back up a motorcoach towing a

toad,

Quote
due

> > to the possibility of the tire caster spinning the toad's

steering

Quote
> wheel and doing damage to the toad steering.
> >

> > But just yesterday I saw a coach pull into an RV site here at > Buckhorn

> > Lake RV Resort and then back up 7-10 feet with the toad

attached.

Quote
>

> > What have other people experienced? Okay to back up a limited > > > distance if, let's say, you follow the same reverse track? > > >

> > One time I pulled straight-in next to a gas island, and

overshot the