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Re: Tires - Teleflex Electronic Speedo Adjustments

Reply #100 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67451

Hi George:

I took the liberty of changing the title a bit to reflect the current discussion.
Attached is the document I have been referring to. On page 5 the settings for 711.0Hz are underlined - I ASSUME this is what my rig has as a setting.
You should probably ignore this underline and check your settings as they may be different. For one you have a Cummins, we have a Cat so I have no idea what difference that could make, if any. Depends on where the signal comes from and its range of operation. As noted previously the speedometer has a very wide range of operation.
Note the instructions on page 3, only 10 of the 14 dip switches are used to set the speedometer frequency - the diagram is clearly marked, you will use switches 3-6 of the left set and 1-6 of the right set.
Write down the settings your speedo is currently set for. Look it up in the tables which will give you the current frequency. Adjust the frequency down (I think) the % of the tire sixe change, look up the new settings and set the dip switches. Test drive the rig.
You don't need an engineer, just a little math and a closed ball point pen to move the little dip switches. Read the instructions a few times and it will make sense.
You may find the switches to be a bit stiff - or not. Just be careful. Break one in the wrong position and you may need a new speedo. The upside of that is the new ones are fog-proof. ;-)

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Tires

Reply #101 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67452

George:

He may be right, but somehow I don't think he is 100% right. The only thing that matters is the published spec by Toyo. It would be on their website if not otherwise available. Look up the separation distance required for the tires you have currently installed and make sure they meet that distance. IF they ever rub the results could be catastrophic given the weights and energy of our coaches.
I am bringing this up because I seem to recall a couple years back an Inspire owner wanted to put the same size Toyos as used on the Intrigue and they would not meet the separation distance. The reason this happened is because the wheels are different between the two models, that makes the tires only part of the equation so I am not comfortable - yet.
Techs are encouraged to "make the sale" as much as the salesmen. What either says never makes me comfortable without some independent research. The speedo is a relatively minor issue, this isn't IMHO.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Tires

Reply #102 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67454
Want to be confused? Then asking members to chime in will result in that as a certainty.
I am in the process of buying some tires, at present only needing to replace the two fronts, I have been told and understand the absolute need to retain the same characteristics/dimensions as the OEMs which are Goodyear. We experienced some irregular wear on the fronts, apparently due to a ride height valve issue. The rears tread depth is near new but I just get extremely nervous with all the weight an control issues if a steer should go "blooey".
That said, I have long preferred Michelins on everything I drive. Most of our vehicles came standard with Michelins. Admittedly like so many things in life we develop personal favorites and mine is Michelin. We are replacing the front two Goodyear steers presently with Michelins with all the same profile and dimensions. When the rears need replacing I'll probably move the steers to the tag and replace all others then.
Others with far more experience and knowledge on this group have provided back door counsel that is borne out by the tire industry. Without exception they have counseled to retain the OEM spec tires. This has been explained whether replacing all or just the fronts as in my case. The reasons given:
1. Tire to body clearance. Going with taller, and less expensive tires, reduces the OEM clearance between body parts. We all hear of the bottom out concerns from this group but bottoming out with the tires contacting a body panel adds a totally new dimension to the issue.
2. Tire to chassis clearance. A taller tire, larger diameter, also may cause contact with frame or other chassis components, particularly in a tight turn. The very short turning radius we enjoy with these coaches could be sacrificed but also damage to the tire could result from such contact.
3. One point that I don't recall seeing discussed is that with greater diameter tires, the coach will ride proportionately higher. It would seem the ride would therefore be altered particularly in a cross wind. The stability would be altered from the original design standards as the center of gravity is raised dramatically.

Probably the least concern...your entry step is two inches higher?
I will be facing the replacement of all tires soon enough because CC in their instructions and the tire manufacturers all recommend tire replacement by age as opposed to tread wear, that is when the tires are subjected to the low mileage most of us drive annually. Hoping not to be offensive, but this fact caused me to smile when I noticed one of the members offering to sell a spare that hadn't seen any road wear whatever for, as I recall, $250. Based on the industry recommendations, regardless of wear that tire at best has carcass value which is typically $90-$100.
I've also seen a few coachees install standard truck tires due to their lower cost. They feel the coach industry is simply being pillaged cost wise. Whether marketing fiction or fact, many have also explained that RV tires are designed for a smoother ride and with compounds that provide a longer life without cracking than truck tires that will literally be ground away.
Little of my opinion is based on personal experience but garnered from listening to many of you...this is why I so highly value the group discussion. Ultimately each of us must make these decisions for ourselves, hopefully the wisdom of collective group advice is helpful.
G Brown

2007 Allure 31447

Re: Tires - Teleflex Electronic Speedo Adjustments [1 Attachment]

Reply #103 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67455
Bob, Checked their website and can find every spec for the tire except distance between duals.
George

Re: Tires

Reply #104 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67456
G,
Appreciate your comments but can't say you gave me the warm fuzzies. I bought the Toyos because I was very happy with the ride that my original Toyos gave me. Sadly, they no longer make that model and until they started making this model about four months ago, nothing was available. The savings over Michelin was a bonus although $1,300 will put a lot of fuel in the tank.
I guess it's time to fish or cut bait. As of this second, I'm going to stick with these tires. If something comes up before I leave for Florida in two weeks, I might change my mind. Thanks Again.

George

Re: Tires

Reply #105 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67457
Not mentioned in the recent thread concerning tire replacement plus and minuses and speedometer effect is the likelihood that your dash speedometer depends on digital input signals from a left front wheel sensor and the transmission senses speed based on rear wheel rotation frequency. The instructions on how to set your dash speedometer to correct for a different tire size have no effect on what the transmission senses and uses among other inputs, torque load, etc. to regulate shifting.

To illustrate:

A few years ago I had occasion to replace my 4 rear tires. The steer tires had been replaced earlier with the same Toyo tires as original. AT the OR tire shop that does all the CC work I was told that those Toyo tires were no longer approved or recommended for CC's and were not available so we checked what CC was using for current model coaches of the same type and it was a GoodYear variant designed for RV use. On checking the tire sites I discovered the replacement tires selected were fractionally smaller in diameter than the original Toyos and was assured that this made no difference as long as different sizes were not mixed on the same axle. The tire sites provided appropriate "rotations per miles" and other pertinent information to compared the sizes.
As a practical matter I noticed that the speed and odometer readings on the dash speedometer are fractionally lower than readings from my Silver Leaf engine monitor which apparently gets its info direct from the transmission and engine electronics modules. The slightly smaller diameter of the drive wheels is the same as slightly reduced (lower gear) gearing and from the driving "feel" standpoint maybe a little better match than the original tire size. This translates to maybe 1/2 - 3/4 mph difference in the readings between the dash speedo and electronic monitor. I know how to adjust the speedo but it just isn't worth the bother. Besides the dash odometer records the same as original and I wouldn't want to run afoul of the regulator watch dogs. I have a corresponding APPARENT improvement in mileage between the current size and the original based on the Silver Leaf which can track such things - again minimal and of no practical significance but it makes me feel like I'm getting slightly better mileage.

Jim M

'02 Intrigue #11410 ISL400

Re: Tires

Reply #106 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67458

Not all truck tires are the same and it is totally inappropriate to use some of those designs on RVs. It all depends on the purpose for which they will be used. There are steer tires to be used only on steer axels, and drive tires properly used only on drive axels, there are tires made that can be used on all positions and long haul versus short haul. LOTS of combinations. Each combination uses different tread designs, rubber compounds and carcass construction methods. The most appropriate "truck" tire for our use is the short haul any position version. I installed Firestones and they are advertised for RV use and short haul truck applications such as big city delivery. In addition to the obvious appropriate tread and rubber compound such tires have thicker sidewalls for protection from curbs. Such appliccations do not wear down quickly like long haul high speed uses so they are designed to last several years and not months.
The other advice I have seen is that RVs should always use steel cord construction and not fabric type cord.
The Toyos originally used by CC were the same as used for some truck applications so I do not believe that an RV specific tire is the only choice. There are clearly marketing issues associated with that kind of claim. You can't go wrong using such a tire but that isn't the only choice.
The tire only knows what it is exposed to and how it is used. Selection of the correct design is what is important and I never, ever believe sales people. I do extensive research to try (all one can do) and make a correct decision at the most reasonable (note I didn't say cheap) cost.
FWIW my current Firestone tires ride as well or better than anything else I have used in 35+ years of Class A RV driving, are wearing even and show no signs of being incorrect in any way. And they cost just a bit less than $300 each a year and a half ago. (Plus all the additional charges they manage to stick on of course.)

But that's just my .02 worth.

A number of Michelin owners have posted that the company does not honor their warranties like they used to. If you search the messages you should find the posts. Considering what they charge/cost that would bother me.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Tires

Reply #107 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67459
Good comments GB on tires and the many options we have.
A big fan of Michelins they are the best available. The tire is mfg to speed ratings, weight, and quiet ride is my choice the best tire I can buy for my steer axle. I believe you get what you pay for and the TOYO's installed at the factory were probably let out for bid and there is the result. My experience with TOYO's has not been positive at all. The Michelin ride was by far superior.
Has there been any info posted on TOYO for weight and speed? The first time we returned from a trip in hot summer the tires smelled like rotten eggs in the bldg. Calling TOYO about the odor there was no explanation for it and the first they heard.
With the sale of a total out of date tire for sale at $250 is a stretch and should remain a spare.
Reading trade magazines about the tire industry tire prices will continue to climb with 4-8 % increase. The raw material and the largest factor, labor as most plants laid off employees and now with increase demand labor comes back at higher cost, supply and demand.
Enough crystal ball reading..... as the dog just pawed for outside business.
AL

00 affinity #5851

Re: Tires

Reply #108 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67460

The speed indicator (whether engine, transmission, wheel or whatever) must always be calibrated (or if your lucky checked) to the chassis and tires they are installed with. I'd check each against a good GPS system to see which is closest. Silver Leaf is merely reading the sensors in the various components, it doesn't "run" them. Each is adjustable and may or may not have been set properly at the time of coach assembly.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Tires

Reply #109 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67461
Seems to me , that , if the side wall is 2 inches higher, that the "flexed width" " would be greater. If the "flexed width " is greater on both tires, then the space between will be reduced by quite a bit. I agree with Bob Harnden, that they will sell what they can, and that you should get independent advice. With respect to engine RPM. coaches are built to turn the RPM with the peak torque ( tire height and axle gear ratio ) and 65 MPH. That's why smaller sized engines require higher RPM's . For instance my ISX at 14.9 Liters turns approx 1400 RPM at 60 MPH and my old ISL at 8.9 liters turned approx 1700 RPM at 60. By disturbing that relationship, your engine is turning a lower RPM and is lower on the torque curve and also developing less HP. ( I am aware that most torque curves are pretty flat, but HP comes from the amount of fuel burned ) As well, after 55 MPH, the ability to push the coach through the air is the biggest factor. If you need to develop , say 300 HP to push the coach through the air, then you will need more fuel to burn at that lower RPM, to develop that HP. The turbo boost will go up and fuel economy will go down. The only time, where I might think that mileage would improve , might be on a flat run with a bigger displacement engine. If you have a small cubic inch engine , I cannot see how mileage would improve , in other than the most favorable of conditions.

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025 ISX 650

Re: Tires - Duals Spacing

Reply #110 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67462

George:

The spec to verify is the rim width. The charts give a range of acceptable rim widths. Your wheels will have this stamped on them, merely compare to the Toyo table. If the wheel is within the range your separation will be fine.
Looking at the tables in the Toyo document the comment by your mechanic about section width makes more sense. For a certain range of tires it is the same - but not for all, the problem with generalities. There are 22.5" tires with different section widths but they are probably outside the range of sizes that will apply to your coach. Plus, I just scanned the tables, but it appears they would actually be smaller not wider so no problem.
So it should be pretty simple now, just check the rim specs versus the Toyo table.
There are folks who like to bash Toyo, everyone is entitled to an opinion even if some politicians disagree. I was quite happy with the performance of the ones I have had. Any lack of performance was self inflicted by a previous owner or myself for not watching the tire air pressures. The fact CC and Toyo had some legal wranglings does not affect an inanimate object - the tire. I would buy them again.
That reminds me - did the Toyo distributor know these were going on an RV? I thought, because of the lawyers, Toyo was not selling tires for use on CC products. Or maybe now that the original company is no more makes it moot.

When and where will you be in FL?

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Tires

Reply #111 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67463
Ron, I agree with your analysis 100%, and it is consistent with the points I made earlier. Also, any change in MPG will vary depending on power (torque?)/ weigh ratio.
Seems like the higher the power/weight ratio the more likely a MPG improvement (if any), and the lower the power/weight ratio the less likely a MPG improvement, and perhaps a MPG decline as those with the lower ration would be spending more time/miles in 5th and lower gears.
In the end, regardless of tire size, the same work must be done on any trip. The key is the relative level of engine efficiency for a given set of variables like ones discussed.

--

Lee Zaborowski

07 Intrigue 12153, Cat C-13

Re: Tires

Reply #112 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67465

Lee, that's true particularly for a diesel engine which has such a broad torque band, improvement in efficiency isn't there. RPM changes are so small from a tire change any improvement from less friction generation is also minimal.
A gasoline engine can gain significant fuel economy improvements when the end drive ratio keeps it in the relatively narrow torque band. Plus lower rpm means less friction because gas engines have a much broader engine speed range.
O/D units (like Gear Vendors) installed on gasoline motor homes apparently do not provide the improvement obtained with automobiles. I think the weights we are dealing with are also a factor making it harder to gain improvements.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Tires

Reply #113 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67466
What's this "must always" concept in the context o this particular thread? A GPS reading in my coach matches the dash speedometer almost exactly. As mentioned before correcting the Silver Leaf to match the Dash speedo minimal difference isn't worth the effort. I'm sure the electronics modules that control the engine/transmission don't really care what the dash speedometer (or, for that matter the Silver Leaf) shows. As you point out neither "run" the coach.

Jim M

'02 Intrigue #11410 ISL 400

Re: Tires - Duals Spacing

Reply #114 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67467
Bob,
Rim size is 8.25. Toyo spec is 7.50 to 8.25 with 8.25 in bold. Sounds good to me.
The original problem with CC and Toyo was because CC was under sizing the tires. Yes the dealer knew the tires were going on an RV. I'm sure Toyo is covered since they state not recommended. God forbid anything happens, it would be the tire dealer I would go after (if able).

George

Re: Tires

Reply #115 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67469

Jim:

I believe I added you might luck out and only require a check. As all coaches are an assembly of parts from various manufacturers, if you want to be assured of accuracy, you must always calibrate. The context was accuracy of the speedo after tire size dimension changes. Whether it is an instrument, firearm or even a slingshot it needs to be calibrated. ;-) If you are lucky it is spot on, seldom happens in real life. If you are comfortable memorizing correction factors that works too but your instruments are not accurate.
I still feel stung by the jerk who reported my Jeep to CarFax for an inaccurate speedometer/odometer. Never went anywhere near the place again. That was located in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia. I certainly don't want such a blemish on the record of my coach.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Tires

Reply #116 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67471
I may be way off base here, I did not read all the post fully, but you can re-program the ECM according to the tire size you are running., that should take care of all the corrections, trans changing, cruise control, and the silverleaf... Just my thought...
Marvin, 07 Allure 470 #31459

Re: Tires

Reply #117 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67472
More accurately, you can program the Silver Leaf monitor to be accurate relative to the tire size and associated readings. You can also program your dash speedometer to be accurate relative to the wheel and tire size to which it is connected. I don't think either has any effect on the ECM (Electronic Control Module) that controls the engine, transmission and their function and relationship to each other. It, too, can probably be programmed to achieve certain desired objectives like altered shift points, speed or abruptness of shifts, etc. but that is not something usually available to the owner operator and it's probably best that it isn't. By selecting the "economy" mode in the Allison controller, for example, you are, in effect, selecting an option (controlling) the ECM I believe.

Jim M

'02 Intrigue #11410 ISL 400

Re: Tires

Reply #118 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67473
How many members drive in the economy Allison Trans mode ? Which mode is preferred ? AL

00 affinity #5851

Re: Tires

Reply #119 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67474
Hello Al,

I always run the economy Allison trans mode, but will manual shift for climbing and down hill driving when not utilizing the Jake brake.

Corky & Kathleen
00 Affinity B&B 5769

Re: Tires/economy mode

Reply #121 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67476
I drive in the Economy mode essentially always. Of course i'm older and not really in any hurry to show how fast I can accelerate, etc. Actually, i don't think it really has anything to do with economy which might be more driver related but I think the brochure that came with the coach described that it may soften the shifts a little (less harsh) and maybe, all other things being equal, keep the transmission in a little higher gear ratio longer before shifting down - things you might do if shifting a manual transmission and in complete control of when and how the shifts are done - like it was in my old 4104 before "moving up" to CC.

Jim M

'02 Intrigue ##11410 ISL 400

Re: Tires/economy mode

Reply #122 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67479
We use it practically all the time except on mountain grades where the lower shift points work better. Often, I shift manually in those situations anyway. On flatter terrain, we find that it smoothes operation with little affect on performance.

Dan & Ann Houck
Allure #30180

Re: Tires/economy mode

Reply #123 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67482
Al

I have asked the question twice of Allison shops and was told it was preferable not to use the economy mode, when towing, particularly in the mountains. You want the transmission to downshift in order to maintain your RPMs.

Dan 2006 Allure 31348

Re: Tires

Reply #124 –
Yahoo Message Number: 67488

Al I run in econ mode when the road does not have any or many steep grades. My coach handles low to medium grades with no prob. On steep or really long hills that will create heat build up I control the gear manually to keep rpm in a range to allow the fan enough speed to cool effectively. I would rather lose a little mpg than to over heat tranny or manifolds. Besides, it gives me something to do.....................

Dave

aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443